President Plays Down UN Resolution Against Iran
President Mahmud Ahmadinezhad has played down the possibility of a third resolution being passed against Iran and warned the West against forcing Iran to give up its nuclear rights. In a televised interview the president said: “Let’s assume they do pass a resolution. It has become perfectly clear that our nuclear case was not a legal or a technical issue. This is because the responsible body is the Agency [IAEA] and they have said that no problems exist. This is what we have been saying from the outset… If the gentlemen want to prove that what we were saying was right all along, then I see no problems in that, but if certain people believe that they can force the Iranian people to talks from a position of weakness, then this kind of approach has passed its sell by date.” He added: “We believe that if they make such mistake then the biggest blow will have been dealt the structures on which their own power is based.” The following is the text of his interview broadcast by state-run Iranian TV channel one on 1 March. Subheads inserted editorially:
New budget bill
[Presenter] In the name of God, the creator of life and the creator of language. Greetings and my respect to you, the dear audience, my respectful countrymen.
As it has been brought to your attention in various news sections, at this moment we are going to have a discussion with the respectful president of our country, Dr Mahmud Ahmadinezhad. We will discuss and talk about various issues with him such as the budget, transport and other topics which are somehow considerable like the elections, his trip to Iraq, which is happening tomorrow and changes in Palestine.
If time allows us, we will discuss and review other issues which are somehow important as well.
Mr President, I would like to say hello to you. Thank you very much for giving us this chance to discuss our questions.
[Ahmadinezhad] I would like to express my greetings to you and the dear Iranian nation as well.
[Presenter] Thank you very much. Dr, if you agree we will start with the subject of the budget. You have performed a lot of revolutionary changes during your presidential period such as the provincial tours, management organization and planning of the country. But the most recent one has been the budget which was presented to the Majlis with major improvements.
In your opinion, please tell our people about the logic behind these changes, which can be thought of as revolution in a way, administration revolution, economic revolution, banking revolution and also the budget.
[Ahmadinezhad] [Prayers in Arabic: In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful. Oh, God, hasten the arrival of Imam al- Mahdi and grant him good health and victory, and make us his best companions and supporters and those who attest to his rightfulness.] I would like to thank you for choosing important and proper topics for this discussion.
As you know, in managing the country, we consider a point as the goal or a view of the goal which we call as the outlook, in fact the specifications of the point we want to reach. To reach that point, since you cannot directly step into the point where your goal is, we consider phases. This means that we define certain stations for reaching our ideal point to see how the five-year plans, seven-year plans, and four-year plans [interrupted by the presenter].
[Presenter] As some call it a 20-year outlook document.
[Ahmadinezhad] The outlook is in fact the image of that goal. Well it is an image, it is all qualitative. We would like to be inspiring, we would like to be more developed, and we would like to be the first scientific power in the region. These are qualitative. Well, this kind of planning has a specification: that is others are moving as well. When we want to be 20 years ahead, we have to realize others’ speed as well.
[Presenter] We have to overtake while moving!
[Ahmadinezhad] Overtake and reach. We consider mid way stations called a five-year plan, seven-year plan. To reach any plan, they consider a one-year plan, which is called the budget. The specifications of that peak are totally qualitative. The criteria we give are all qualitative. Budget is totally quantitative. It’s just made of numbers and figures, how much to earn, where from and where to spend. Therefore, the clearest, most practical plan given is the one-year budget plan. Everything about it has to be clear. Well, the system of budgeting in our country was not on this basis from long time ago, since 40, 50, 80 years ago. But it was better at the beginning. The amounts of revenues and costs were clear. Then it became more and more complicated. Unlike the clear prose of The Constitution regarding the budget law, long-term law was made. It means subjects which are not related to the one-year budget. It can be five-year, ten-year, 30-year, 100-year one [budget]. They wrote these in the one-year budget law.
Gradually the volume of the budget increased a lot. It increased to the extent that no one had the ability to control this budget.
Simplifying the budget
[Ahmadinezhad, continues] The internal matters gradually became more complicated. The sphere of responsibility for each person became more confusing over time. In other words, one could see in the budget bill lack of transparency, complication and confusion over the responsibilities of each individual. Well, it is very easy to understand what the source of these difficulties was. You could see this as well. You see, even the state managers and Majlis deputies did not know the details of the budget bill. In reality, even the ordinary people in the street and bazaar should know about the budget because it is only written to apply to one year. They should demand to know the detail of the budget and should check that it is being implemented properly. Some officials cannot even get to know the details of the budget for their own departments. It shows how complicated our budget bills have been. Ideally, the budget bill should be very simple. It must show all the revenue and expenditure in simple terms. It should show what we earn and how we spend it. When the sphere of various responsibilities is not clear cut, when they are made complicated and when there is lack of transparency, then the policy direction of the budget is not clear. It will be like a traveller, who stops midway at a station before resuming his climb to the summit of the mountain. He is expected to take hundreds of steps, but what happens when he lifts his foot and then does not know where to put it down? When the budget bill is being formulated, there are many possible distracting side steps. As a result, the budget will not follow a straight and clear path. It has a great influence on people’s lives, but lacks direction. No-one can explain clearly why this is happening. And when the budget fails to follow the desired course, we keep adding clauses and notes to the bill.
Well, the government has decided to change this situation. We eliminated all the appendices which had nothing to do with the budget. We clarified all areas of responsibility. In accordance with the Constitution, we have only 44 executive departments at the most. If we add the officers of governors-general, there will be one extra executive department per province. However, there are at present 610 executive departments. More than 4,000 agreements were signed by various executive authorities last year. As a result, the vice president who previously was in charge of the State Management and Planning Organization had to allocate all his time to preparing drafts for these agreements. How could he have time to do anything else? How could he supervise and direct each programme? There was basically no time for offering any advice.
[Ahmadinezhad, continues] Of course there were individuals, who managed to perform their task despite the difficulties. They managed their job without drawing attention to themselves. They could manage their own department quite well. Neither the Majlis nor the government realized this and were able to appreciate their efforts.
Drawing up the budget used to take six months. That is, for six months of the year, the state was busy compiling the budget bill and endorsing it. The officials from the village head man to the president were somehow engaged in drawing up the budget bill during this six month period. Perhaps it took three to four months for the government to prepare the budget bill. After preparing the budget bill, it used to be submitted to the Majlis, where it was debated for some time too. As we approached the end of the year, on about 27th or 28th of Esfand, there was a sudden rush to approve the budget bill. Often at the last minute, they used to find something to prolong the endorsement process of the budget bill. Well, the government decided to create transparency throughout this process. It clarified the area of responsibility for each official. The government said that, in accordance with the Constitution, certain areas of responsibility should be dealt with by the relevant authorities totalling 39 departments. They must perform the tasks in the country. And they are also answerable to the people. If we add the number of the 30 provinces, the total becomes 69. It is therefore quite meaningless for any other authority to get involved in the matter. Basically, in our Constitution there is no meaning for an independent authority.
[Enadi] Mr President! Your logic is quite correct. There is also some discussion on reducing the number of pages in the budget bill. For instance, the total pages were about 2,700 or 2,800. This has been reduced to 600 pages, by getting rid of all the clauses. Do you not think that this was a very revolutionary thing to do?
[Ahmadinezhad] Look, we do not have the time to read so many pages. When we come to the conclusion that something is right, we must go ahead and do it quickly. Others have gone through this process quite rapidly. We must not be afraid of reducing the page numbers. We must likewise not be afraid to open a large volume book. We must open it and see if it is useful. If it turns out not to be, and not in line with the necessities of the era, then we can discard it. Well, we have truly created a transformation in the budget bill. This will enable any Majlis MP, any member of the cabinet and ordinary people to understand the budget bill. They should understand where the revenue comes from and how it is spent.
Of course, the event, which occurred, to some extent changed this task of the government. Well, we had said that there should be 69 departments [executive authorities], but ended up having something around 290 departments. Well, this makes our task difficult. It makes the country’s work difficult. Basically, in accordance with the Constitution, there are no independent departments. The departments either work under the supreme leader or under the three authorities of the state [judicial, legislative and executive authorities]. That is all. There is no other form, according to the Constitution. Therefore, no department can claim that it should be outside jurisdiction of the judicial, legislative or executive authorities. How can anyone make such a claim?
Organizing state departments
Of course, we were pursuing other objectives in drawing up the budget bill. The government was truly trying to reduce its expenditure. Please pay attention to this point. We have assumed that our next year’s expenditure will be equal to what it has been this year. We have said that the state departments must make savings in order to meet the cost of annual salary increments to cope with the rising prices. We have really restricted our expenditure. However, what we did was truly something different. We introduced some fundamental changes in order to make our task for these reforms [simple. Ahmadinezhad did not finish the sentence]. This required some step by step work and had some consequences. I am saying this, so as to put the people in the picture. We have concentrated all our efforts in order to bring the negative consequences to a minimum and to maximize the positive consequences. At any rate, the government must have the power to exercise some manoeuvre in the arena of running the country.
If we were to tie down the government’s hand everywhere and then expect to run and resolve the problems, it would be very difficult. I think that it is highly unlikely to find any other government in the world which would be able to resolve its country’s problems in this manner. For instance, as I said, we have truly restricted the expenditure budget of the state departments. For example, the current expenditure budget is something around 41,000 billion tumans. But, in practice, when it was submitted to the Majlis, this figure was increased by 7,200bn tumans.
[Enadi] You mean the current expenditure budget?
[Ahmadinezhad] That is right I do mean the current expenditure budget. Some of the sources for meeting the cost of the proposed extra revenue [to meet the extra expenditure] are clear but some are not. Well, where is the amount of 7,200bn tumans going to come from?
[Enadi] It has been said that you can increase the revenue through higher taxation.
[Ahmadinezhad] Where we should tax more?
[Enadi] How about the higher oil prices?
[Ahmadinezhad] It will not be the right thing to do [to take more money out of the oil reserve funds]. As I said, some of the sources for meeting the cost of the proposed extra revenue are clear but some are not. That is, some of the proposed sources of increasing our revenue are unrealistic. For instance, the revenue from some mines, which is about 40bn tumans, has been overestimated to be 440bn tumans in the budget bill. This is not the right thing to do.
Another proposal has said that we should sell more foreign currency [to the public]. Well, by selling more foreign currency, they mean taking more money from the oil [stabilization fund]. The expenditure budget is four billion dollars more than the figure which we had proposed. Our proposed figure was 36bn dollars, excluding the Oil Ministry’s own budget expenditure. This is because the Oil Ministry has a special foreign currency allowance in order to manage its departments. We have not taken this into our calculations. However, the figure of 36bn dollars is the amount that the government directly takes out of the oil revenue. As I said, this figure was increased by 4bn dollars [in the Majlis].
Moreover, the budget revenue figure has been increased by about 6,000bn tumans, without specifying the sources of such extra revenue. For instance, we have said that such and such factory should pay one billion tumans in taxes, but they [MPs in the Majlis] have written down a taxation figure of 5bn tumans for the factory. Well, this is not possible. How can the factory pay so much tax? What will be the consequences of such higher a tax figure on the economy?
[Enadi] Dr Ahmadinezhad! I remember reading an article somewhere, proposing that the extra revenue should come from taxation, but I am not sure where I read this. However, the same article had added that even by doing so, two thirds of the revenue for the current revenue figure in the budget bill will not be met. Where is that going to come from?
[Ahmadinezhad] Yes, that is the question. We have tried to reduce the figure of unrealistic estimated revenue. Furthermore, we have tried to direct most of the oil revenue to development projects. That is, we have proposed to build dams, universities, hospitals, roads, railway lines, etc. Such projects will be ever-lasting and will benefit the future generation of the country. We have tried to increase the share of development projects. At the same time, we have tried to reduce the share of our current expenditure budget. For instance, we have proposed that less money should be spent on electricity bills, water bills and telephone bills of the state departments as well as on travelling expenses. The figure for such expenses, at present, is 7,200bn [tumans]. That is, 17.5 per cent of the [sentence not finished]. This is a very high figure. I accept that there are a lot of flaws in the country’s current budget bill. But can we overcome all these flaws in a single budget? Of course, we cannot. After all, there are no other sources of revenue and we do not wish to take more money out of the oil revenue. As a result, we have to reduce our expenditure.
What would happen, if we were to inject more of the oil revenue into the economy? When the Central Bank sells more of the hard currency on the [open] market, the market cannot absorb it. As a result, we would have to increase cash circulation in rials [by printing more money]. That will amount to higher inflation figure. Well, we must avoid this. We must not allow this to happen. In my opinion, they [the Majlis MPs] did not pay attention to this matter. Of course, they worked very hard. Fortunately, this year, the Majlis did not have to allocate too much time to debating the budget. It was very easy to study this budget bill. However, they changed almost every article of the budget bill. When they increase the current expenditure figure by 7,200bn [it is not clear whether he means tumans or dollars] and add 2,300bn to the development budget, it is fine to spend more on development projects. Very well, the more money is made available to such projects, the more we shall work on such projects. However, there have been some other additions to the expenditure bill, bringing the total to 10,000bn tumans.
They have proposed that, 4,000bn dollars should come from the oil revenue [it seems that Ahmadinezhad is confusing dollars and tumans]. Very well, but from what source is the government expected to supply the revenue for the rest of the proposed expenditure? We cannot go on writing down expenditure figures. The fault will appear somewhere. I mean, when we go ahead to the work, it will become clear that [sentence incomplete].
I saw that, after the Majlis’s ratification of the budget bill, one of our friends [presumably, a Majlis MP] that we passed the budget bill with a major deficit, which will fuel inflation. He was right. There is a big deficit in the budget. Now, we must try to minimize the adverse effects of this deficit in the country. At the same time, we must try to reduce the sale of our hard currency reserve. There is a way to implement such a regime. After all, we had submitted a budget to the Majlis. That budget bill had been prepared by experts and was fully balanced.
[Enadi] Do you mean that the government’s proposed budget had no deficit? No deficit of 5,700bn tuman?
[Ahmadinezhad] that is right. There was no deficit. We had estimated an increase in the amount of state revenue from non-oil sources. But our estimates were logical. We had also limited our proposed withdrawal from the hard currency fund. In fact we had left the figure the same as last year, but we were faced with the proposed extra expenditure on transportation. The draft bill for improving transportation is highly significant and must be implemented. We have therefore increased the level of our hard currency expenditure in order to meet the cost of improving transportation. At the same time, we had proposed to increase our revenue from non-oil sources.
[Enadi] Sir! One of the criticisms levelled against your government is that the country’s dependency on oil revenue has increased in the year 1387 budget bill and they say that this is contrary to the fourth five-year economic development plan.
[Ahmadinezhad] Our proposed budget bill had not envisaged this scenario. Furthermore, the predictions of the five-year plan are not realistic. In fact, these predictions have been altered three times. Over the years, there have been more development proposals without specifying the sources of revenue to fund them. This must me rectified. However, as a whole, the budget bill which we proposed was less dependent on the reliance on oil revenue than the one last year. Even last year’s budget bill was less dependent on oil revenue, compared with the budget for the previous year. In other words, this trend is continuing. At present, the budget bill is 4,000bn [dollars] more than the figure which we proposed. That is, the figure of 36bn was increased to 40bn. As a result, our foreign currency expenditure increases by 11 per cent. Furthermore, other expenditure is proposed without specifying the source of revenue to cover this. The budget has proposed some extra expenditure amounting to 6,400bn tumans without saying where the revenue is going to come from to meet these costs.
Let me say one more sentence about the budget. On the last day of debating the budget bill in the Majlis, as I said, some expenditure was added. Moreover, two articles were added to the budget bill. One of these bills concerned the allocation of state-owned factory shares to the public. Well, as you know, we have already started to do so in accordance with Article 144 of the Constitution. This is a major economic task which we are in the process of implementing at present. At the same time, we are reforming the stock market. The banks are assisted to direct funds [to the stock market]. However, the estimated figure for public share allocation is unrealistic. In accordance with the figure [proposed by the Majlis], we are expected to allocate about 36 to 39 thousand billion tumans of shares to the public next year. Our stock market is a fledgling organ. You remember that in the year 1382 [2003] the stock market index grew very rapidly and then burst like a bubble. As a result, some investors incurred losses. We have addressed this problem. At present our stock market is quite transparent and healthy. The current rate of growth is reasonable. Last year we tried hard and as a result the total amount of share transactions came to 7,000bn tumans. That is, the figure which was 5,000bn before we took over increased to 7,000bn. This year the figure is expected to increase to 9,000bn tumans. The following year, the figure is expected to increase to 12,000bn tumans. And then, it should increase to 15,000bn tumans a year after that. Erratic growth patterns might lead to a sudden drop in the value of shares. If that were to happen, the investors would incur losses. In such situations, the individuals with plenty of cash would benefit because they buy when the prices fall.
Stock market capacity
Basically, our stock market does not have the capacity to deal with so many shares that we are supposed to offer to the public. We must think of a solution to this problem. Of course, we are trying at our intensive meetings to make sure that the supply of too many shares would not negatively affect the stock market growth. God willing, our stock market will maintain the current rate of growth. We shall think of something else. However, I am trying to say that an article was added to the budget bill in half an hour, without thinking about its consequences. In other words, four clauses were added to the budget bill within a period of half an hour [in the Majlis] and as a result we are expected to carry out the allocation of shares amounting to tens of thousand billion tumans. This cannot help us to bring about the necessary transformation of the budget bill. I personally allocated about 100 hours of my own time to prepare this year’s budget bill. We spent more than 60 hours of this to debate the budget with some highly qualified experts of the former budget and planning organization. In other words, we were exchanging ideas, debating various articles and arguing over them. We were trying to convince one another to accept the other’s point of view. I also spent the remaining 40 hours studying the budget and other relevant publications. Despite all these efforts, it took the Majlis only half an hour to add some articles to the draft budget bill. Their excuse was that such and such foundation had written a letter and proposed the allocation of shares. Well, any letter must be investigated. It is not right to expect us to implement 60 per cent of the proposals made in Clause A of the Constitution’s Article 44 this year and 40 per cent of the Clause J in this year too.
Well, when the government does its management job with prudence, there are complaints [presumably in the Majlis] that the government is not in favour of implementing the policies of Article 44 promptly. Then the whole thing is delayed. And if were to proceed, the whole economic system would be disturbed.
[Enadi] Mr President! Your Excellency mentioned that this is precisely in line with general policies of Article 44, but there is a criticism that the budget allocated to government firms has increased by 30,000bn tumans. This is contrary to the plan to curtail the government’s involvement in the economy.
[Ahmadinezhad interrupts] No, this is not true. You see, the increase is allocated to such departments as the Oil Ministry, gas projects and other such key industries. Well, we must invest in such sectors. We cannot deny them their necessary investment.
[Enadi] Could you not allocate some of the tasks to the private sector?
[Ahmadinezhad] Yes, we can. In fact, in accordance with the policies, we have tried to privatize all the state companies, which could be allocated to the private sector, via the stock market. However, before allocating any company to the private sector, they must be scrutinized in order to make sure that they are transparent enough to win the trust of the would-be investors. If they are made transparent, the investors will run a lesser risk of incurring losses. The process requires some administrative work. But we have put all the relevant state owned companies in a queue to be floated on the stock market. As we have said in the government, no-one in such companies has the right to oppose the privatization process. Please pay attention to this point.
There are other companies [such as oil and gas] which continue to perform their tasks. It is natural that these companies should advance annually by increasing the volume of their work. This does not mean that we are increasing the size of the government. Yes, it is true that we are investing heavily in the oil and gas sector. In fact, we have tripled our investment in this sector. We are investing in the upper centres [presumably, pumping stations for oil and gas pipelines].This is because the country needs such investment. We must expand the network [of oil and gas distribution]. The distribution network will remain under the government’s control for ever. Please note that we limiting our investment in those state-owned companies, which we are going to sell to the public, but at the same time, we are increasing our investment in the companies which the government will keep. It must be so. This does not mean that the government is growing in size. We have started the task [of reducing the size of the government] from the offices closest to the administration. That is, we reduced the size of the State Management and Planning Organization, which had grown into an unwieldy monster. We have maintained the experts and the elite. God willing, we shall extend the process to cover other state departments.
As I said, within the period of half an hour, a gentleman [MP] proposed adding an article to the budget bill, making us obliged to allocate 39,000bn tumans’ worth of shares to the public in one year. We shall do so by adopting the right policy. What I said should not worry the people. I am trying to say that interactions [between the government and the Majlis] should increase to some extent. The task of compiling the budget must be left to the government. The task of debating the budget bill belongs to the Majlis and we respect its right. However, if the Majlis were to become involved in compiling the budget, it would make the task quite difficult. Please note this. The Majlis can then make sure whether the budget articles correspond with the Constitution. If it should decide that some articles of the budget bill are incompatible with the law concerning the development plans, we would rectify the matter. We would only be too pleased to respect the wishes of the Majlis and make alterations as they deem necessary. I must again point out that, is the Majlis were to take over the task of writing the budget, who would be answerable for any flaws? We shall fully implement this amended budget with utmost sincerity and with all our effort. We shall not digress from any of its articles, through almighty succour. We shall, as trustees of the people, implement every article to the letter. But what will be the consequences? Who will be responsible for any adverse results following this? Who should be answerable to the people? This is a serious question. When the structure of the budget is totally altered, we cannot determine whether our original compiled budget was sound or not.
Budget and inflation
[Enadi] Mr President! One of the criticisms made concerns the negative consequences of the budget bill. You yourself mentioned this point. It is being said that the budget bill for the year 1387 will fuel inflation, whereas, in accordance with the fourth economic development plan, the rate of inflation should fall to single figures. In view of what you said about the negative consequences of the coming year’s budget bill, the rate of inflation will rise in the coming year.
[Ahmadinezhad interrupts] Our budget is a contracting budget. You see, we have reduced the budget on the government’s expenditure [paying electricity and phone bills], while increasing the amount allocated to development projects. And this is the right thing to do. Many of the development projects will reach fruition this year and next year, God willing. The profit from these projects will flow back into our economy. When that happens, it will help to reduce the inflation rate. At any rate, the budget ceiling was raised by almost 10,000bn [not said whether this is dollars or tumans], 4,000bn of which will come from the oil revenue. As I said, the further expenditure of 6,400bn dollars has been envisaged without specifying the source of revenue. God willing, we shall somehow sort it out. After all, we need to learn the secret of sorting out these matters. My aim in saying this is not to denounce anyone or reject anyone’s ideas. Least of all, do I wish to criticize the honourable Majlis MPs because they have worked so hard. I am trying to say that we must observe the necessary procedures in order to be able to reach the state of compiling a budget which is suitable for the country. After all, we have managed to make the budget transparent. We have said [to the MPs] that this is our budget bill. They should let us implement our proposed budget; and any flaws will come to light in the implementation process. We could then remedy any weaknesses with each other’s assistance.
[Enadi] Mr President! I have one more question about the budget. You said that you have managed to reduce the number of executive organs from its previous figure to 39; or 69 by including the provinces. Thanks to the Majlis’s alteration, the number was increased to 290. Will this make the government’s supervision task difficult? Incidentally, Dr Ahmadinezhad, we were discussing the issue of traffic. One of our friends who was from the municipality [of Tehran] said that 16 different organizations seem to be responsible for the task of dealing with the traffic issue. I asked which organ was really responsible. It appears that, for the most part, the traffic department is like an orphan [with no-one responsible for it], because with so many responsible departments, no-one assumes real responsibility. Over the issue of the budget too, since there are 290 organs now, it seems that the government’s task of maintaining supervision over them all is difficult. Is this the case?
[Ahmadinezhad] It is true, we must think of a system. I wish that the Majlis had approved the budget bill which had been proposed by the government. But in accordance with the Constitution, the Majlis is authorized to alter the budget bill. After all, the cabinet ministers must be answerable to the president and the Majlis. Cabinet ministers are responsible. When we treat each ministry as an independent organ, the minister can perform his task with peace of mind. He might say what better. Of course, our cabinet ministers are not like that. They are responsible individuals. But they will enjoy peace of mind [thanks to the Majlis's amendments]. In reality, each minister should be responsible for implementing the policies. Of course, we have thought of some solutions. I wish we could reduce the size of the budget bill to make it a 50 page document. Truly, we should be able to print the budget bill as note books to give a copy to each Iranian. They could carry it in their pockets. Then we would see what happens. When the people hear the daily news, they can check it with the budget book in their pocket just to make sure that the government’s policies are in line with the budget bill. The people must keep an eye on the government’s work. If that were to happen, it would be a major achievement. However, the current budget bill contains more than 700 pages. Well, even the MPs will not read such a large publication. I shall not read it either. How could one have the patience to read so many pages containing complicated tables of calculations? What reason could one find to bother reading such a document?
Transport and big cities
[Enadi] Well, thank you very much Mr President. If you would not mind, we could discuss the urban transport system now. After introducing petrol rationing, the issue of public transportation in urban areas has come to the fore, and the people are paying great attention to this issue.
[Presenter] When you were the mayor of the metropolitan Tehran, you managed some big projects like developing public transport and U- turn exits [on motorways]. What was your reason for doing these things during that time?
[Ahmadinezhad] We all have to make trips. People make trips. We can not stop people from taking trips by offering services. Some individuals think that if the government offers good services to people, they will stay at home and pass their time idly. It is not true. People make more trips even if the government offers the highest level of services to them. We are now trying to establish an electronic government system. Once this electronic government system is established, people will make more trips. When people’s administrative affairs are facilitated, they will have more spare time and they will make more trips. This is because people are defined by their social relations.
For example in Tehran in 1372 [1993], the per capita trips, i.e. the number of trips of each person per day, was 1.4; now it is 1.9. The city has changed a lot during that time. It means that each Tehran citizen makes 1.9 trips per day. In some cities, like Tabriz, the number is 2.3.The number is too large. It means that each person makes 2.3 trips per day on average. The population of Tabriz is around 1.7-1.8 million and if you multiply that by 2.3 trips per day, you would have a large number. The people should make trips, but how? The logic of transport tells us that many such trips should be made by public transport. If each person were to make trips by his/her own personal vehicle, it would be impossible, even if the government develops many streets and motorways.
Let me give you some statistics regarding public transport. We have a number of metropolitan cities like Tehran, Mashhad, Shiraz, Esfahan, Tabriz, Karaj and Ahvaz. In these big cities, the total distance covered by private and public buses and trams is on average 28 per cent of the total transport distance. This means 72 per cent of the transports are completed with other vehicles. Between 6 to 7 per cent is by motorcycles and 65 to 66 per cent is by private cars. One bus has the capacity to transport 25 times more passengers compared to a private car. In our country average passengers in a car taxi or private are 1.57 persons. Average passengers for a bus are more than 35. We have to concentrate on mass public transport and there is no doubt about it. The person who travels by bus consumes 0.1 litre of fuel, but a person who uses a private car consumes one litre [of fuel]. Please pay attention to this difference.
[Presenter] Was it not better to expand public transport first and then start rationing the petrol? You just pointed out those metropolitan cities’ public transport is 28 per cent of the total.
[Ahmadinezhad] I will explain about that later. Petrol rationing has not harmed public transport.
[Presenter] It was said that petrol rationing scheme will result in the increase of public transport and the decrease of private transport. Practically this was not the case [it didn't happen].
[Ahmadinezhad] This is correct. There were problems with our scheme which I would like to explain. Let me start with public transport. Some say that taxis are a part of public transport. Vans, buses and minibuses plus the railway transport. Imagine Enqelab Street, starting from Damavand Street and ending at Azadi Square. At the morning peak time 45,000 to 50,000 people need transport.
We have installed a bus route here, including express and normal services. This bus route can transport a maximum of 10,000 passengers. What about the 30,000 other passengers? They have to use private cars, there is no other option. To move 30,000 passengers per hour using cars, we need to widen this street three or four times. This is impossible. Then every square metre needs to be paid for about two or three million Tumans [2,000 to 3,000 dollars]. Then the properties should be demolished and rebuilt. We need to switch to systems that are able to move 15,000 to 20,000 passengers per hour. This [system] is railway transport. Everyone else is using it; we need to use it as well. We have started using railway systems. Railway transport can be done on three levels. Underground [metro], over-ground and sky train; each has pros and cons. Underground; you have the advantage of transporting larger number of passengers. In the other two you can also transport a lot of people. The other advantage of underground is that nothing obstructs the train. It needs no pylons and there are no crossroads. Some say that in case of war it can be used as a [bomb] shelter. But there is no such a use anymore, because now there are bombs that penetrate 40 metres under the ground. The advantage is the lack of intersections. It has two major disadvantages especially in Tehran. One; Tehran’s soil is not stable and alluvial. In order to excavate in Tehran you have to dig metre by metre and this takes a long time. You are aware that Tehran’s metro [underground] project started 30 years ago. Do you know we have developed only 30 kilometres under the ground? On ground level we have developed from here to Karaj and call it metro.
[Presenter] Some people say that we are using the Chinese technology; if we left the tasks for the Japanese it would be quicker and better.
[Ahmadinezhad] Yes that is possible, but it is not important. Working underground takes time. You need excavation and it takes time and money. As I said in 30 years we developed 30 kilometres. We want to complete 140 kilometres, how long will it take? We need to speed up the process. When I was the mayor [of Tehran] I do remember the company that we signed a contract with for the construction of line 4. I was negotiating with them. I told them why you are saying it takes eight years, we will give you access to ten locations for excavation. They said it is not possible, moving the soil and maintenance is very difficult. They were right. I as a civil engineer confess that working under the ground in Tehran is very difficult; it takes a lot of time. You want to build there; it is like building a concrete skyscraper under the ground; it is not easy. Second disadvantage is the cost. The maintenance and isolation of the soil and at the same time removing the soil. We are building under the ground, building stations under the ground costs three or four times more than ground-level. These are the two disadvantages. I have the statistics; right now every kilometre of metro line is costing more than 40m euros. Now, if we want to implement the same project at ground-level, the cost is cut and it will be developed at a higher speed. The big disadvantage of over ground is the intersections. It can’t speed up; it is like express bus routes. They are used throughout the world and called tramway. But, they are limited and usually used in low congestion areas such as suburbs. It is not possible to run them parallel to motorways and crowded streets. It is similar to bus services, but with less pollution. It can move 12,000 passengers, if the intersections are controlled.
Another system is sky trains. Sky train is the same as a train. Sky-train’s disadvantage is that stations built within the city structure ruin the view. It has two advantages, especially in Tehran. It is built quickly, because you only need narrow bridges to run those trains. The project can start concurrently, there are no hurdles. The only hurdle is the ground-level structure; you can bypass this hurdle by moving the struts. It is cheaper as well. Building tunnels and stations underground cost a lot more than narrow bridges.
[Presenter] Considering all the things you said there are many opposed to the sky-train project. Why?
[Ahmadinezhad] Look, these views are not technical. It is stupid to start a fight between the [supporters of] buses and trains. I bet no engineer can prove sky-trains cost more than underground in Tehran. No engineer can prove underground development is faster. If there is an engineer who claims this, I have to investigate who awarded him/her a degree.
[Presenter] On the public transport issue and considering the Note 13 [on petrol rationing] your administration has done a lot. The question is: Now that public transport has been prioritised after the petrol rationing scheme, how much budget has been allocated to public transport?
[Ahmadinezhad] Let me complete my comments with two more lines. All in all we have to expand our public transport. The government is determined as well. We had a pilot programme last year after the Note 13 was introduced. We need to expand the bus routes and railways in all cities. The buses should travel through all smaller alleyways. The buses should cover all areas in the city. The trains have to do the main transportation.
Railways and petrol rationing
[Enadi] Do you give priority to the monorail [preceding word as heard in English] system?
[Ahmadinezhad] Look, you should not say the word monorail, because it is a foreign word. It sounds so strange. I am quoting experts in Tehran, who say that it has taken 30 years to build 30 kilometres of line in Tehran. No matter how much money you pour in, it absorbs it all. Well, this does not make economic sense, but we must save Teheran. However, we can do so by spending less and achieving a higher speed. This can be done by building two rings of railway lines in Tehran. This will bring some relief to the people. They will be able to go from one point of the city to any other point that they wish. You must not forget that transport systems complement each other. That is, the taxi can collect bus passengers and buses can take passengers to metro stations, or the above street level railway. They should provide transport links to all parts of the city. The number of passengers is not the same in all districts of the city. By carrying 15,000 passengers per hour along a certain route in some districts of the city, you could bring relief to the people. On some other routes, you may need to carry 40,000 people from one place to the next. On some routes, we may need to transport 25,000 people. Moreover, in some places, we need to transport 5,000 passengers per kilometre. Well, we must have buses in such a place. We must also have other transport systems and all of them must operate together.
There is no enmity between the underground railway network and above ground transport [laughter]. I have seen some people speak in a manner as if the underground and above ground systems are in some kind of competition with each other. We must see how much money we have and then with that amount of money we bring the best system which is capable of meeting our requirements quickly. Otherwise, if it was going to take 30 years to [sentence left incomplete]. We need a metro system and we need seven lines. The city keeps growing all the time and it is going to become much bigger in the future. The people will travel from one place to another more often. We must resolve the transport problem. But there will be no quick solution to this problem for the ever growing number of city dwellers. We must bring faster transport systems.
As far as bus travel is concerned, over the past three years, this government has delivered 2,714 to the Tehran municipality. This is unprecedented in the history of Tehran’s urban transport company. Truly this is unprecedented. The government paid 82.5 per cent of the purchase price for these buses. The money came from the budget allocated to improving the public transport system. At present, each bus carries 500 passengers per day. The figure varies between 500 and 600 passengers per day. The goal is to increase the number to more than 1000 per day. This will depend on the method of running the bus transport system. We do not wish to discuss this issue here. However, each bus must be able to transport more than 1000 passengers per day. In other parts of the world, buses carry between 1000 and 1,500 passengers per day. The average figure is 1,100 to 1,200 per day. However, at present, our buses carry between 500 and 600 passengers per day. The average figure for the whole of the country is 600. Please note that this is a very small figure. In other words, we have not benefited fully from the potential of our bus transportation services. After all, this needs a remedy too.
The amount of funds allocated to improving the public transportation system over the past two years was very considerable, both for Tehran and for other urban areas of the country. You must not forget that 60 per cent of the country’s petrol consumption takes place in 16 big cities of the country. We must improve the public transport system in those 16 cities. We had envisaged some money for this purpose but the budget bill allocated a fund to seven cities only. Truly we could sort out this problem in all of these 16 cities within a period of two or three years. Had we done so, the level of petrol consumption would have fallen from 60 per cent to 30 per cent. Reducing petrol consumption by 30 per cent would have been a very big step. Had we done so, the budget allocated for petrol consumption would have been returned to the nation’s treasury.
[Enadi] Well, Mr President, you mentioned something about speeding up the passenger transport system. If you would not mind, we would like to speed up the pace of our discussions. Our time is very short. One of the criticisms is directed to the importation of petrol. Last year’s budget had allocated 2.5bn dollars for this purpose. It is said that a further sum of 2.5bn dollars was withdrawn from the currency reserve fund. This was in addition to the amount endorsed by the Majlis. This figure has increased to 3bn dollars this year. Nevertheless, the amount will not be sufficient to meet required levels of supply. The government has no alternative but to [at this point he is interrupted by Ahmadinezhad].
[Ahmadinezhad] Look, last year, we did not withdraw even a single dollar above the figure which was approved by the Majlis. Absolutely not. I am surprised how people can justify saying such a thing. Basically, we are not allowed to do so. You see, there are many such allegations to the effect that the government is withdrawing funds. We are not allowed to withdraw even one dollar from the currency reserve fund. This is impossible. Basically, the treasury will not allow us to do so without there being a law. When the law recommends that we should withdraw 100 dollars, the treasury gives us only 100 dollars. However, the oil ministry imported about one billion dollars’ worth of petrol from its own budget. This is in accordance with past procedure. It was a natural thing to do. The Majlis owes us this amount. We must introduce a law to enable us to obtain it regularly. This is because we used our own reserves of petrol for 100 days without obtaining our allocated ration. That is, petrol rationing was introduced on 6th Tir [27th June 2007]. There were also allocations for the holiday period and the New Year. As I said, for 100 days we did not claim our allocated ration. This will not happen next year, God willing, because our rationing system is in force now. We do not consume any petrol above our allocated ration. Please note that 3,000bn tumans is the subsidy for the petrol. We claim the amount which we are owed.
Our consumption of diesel fuel is going up annually. Next year we hope to be able to introduce smart cards for diesel users too. This would enable us to control some of the activities along our borders [presumably he means stopping fuel smuggles]. I think that through this three billion tumans of subsidy we should be able to manage the issue well. This will not be a problem.
[Enadi] Do you mean that we would not need to import petrol next year?
[Ahmadinezhad] No. The 3,000 [presumably he means 3bn dollars] is used for importing petrol.
[Enadi] Will this be enough?
[Ahmadinezhad] Yes, it will be enough. Moreover, you must realize that last year we filled up all our storage tanks.
[Enadi] Mr President! What about the issue of opening gas fuel stations to supply the vehicle powered by gas? The current number of such stations has not yet met the required target as specified by Article 13.
[Ahmadinezhad] I am telling you that thanks to the rationing system, our consumption [sentence left incomplete]. Of course, a large number of gas stations will open by the end of the year, God willing. This will be done; otherwise the officials who have promised to fulfil this task will be made gas station attendants [laughter].
[Enadi] I have been asked to put the following question to you Mr President. Our viewers tell us that when talking to the president we must ask him that to spare a thought for us who have gas powered vehicles. They say that it takes them 45 minutes to fill the gas tanks.
[Ahmadinezhad] They are justified. For the same reason, we have not reduced the petrol rations for those drivers who have gas powered vehicles. Please note that, in reality, such drivers should be allocated a reduced ration of petrol. I mean the owners of private vehicles. They should receive 30 litres of petrol per month, but they still receive 120 litres per month. They benefit from the gas distribution system too.
[Enadi] Everyone is happy with his or her ration of petrol. This is very interesting to me. Everyone is satisfied but says that the necessary infrastructure should have been created first.
[Ahmadinezhad] You know that we have a five-year development plan. The honourable Majlis decided that petrol rationing should be introduced from 1st of Khordad, despite the fact that we kept telling them that we needed to lay down the necessary infrastructure. You know our own people too. When we tell them that they can obtain an extra 100 litres for a long distance journey, they all decide to go away during Nowruz holidays. After all, we appreciate that our people like to travel during Nowruz.
I wish all travellers a safe journey during their holidays. There is nothing wrong with going on holiday. I hope that they would drive carefully. The road traffic police and the Automobile Association will be working to help drivers along the way. I hope that no-one will have a breakdown or any other difficulty on route. Have a safe journey and enjoy yourselves.
[Enadi] Mr President! The government has announced that during the Nowruz holidays …
[Ahmadinezhad interrupts] The government is trying to make sure that no passengers using public transport will be left behind. Often some travellers might lose their tickets. Some loose their petrol rationing cards; and some run out of petrol. Some people might decide to travel from Tehran to Zahedan [near the Pakistani border] in their own car.
[Enadi interrupts] Will you give any amount [of extra petrol] to help such drivers? Will you allocate them 300 tumans or 700 tumans [to purchase more petrol?]?
[Ahmadinezhad] You see, we have said that they might receive the basic minimum because we do not have any more subsidies to allocate. However, we wish to make certain that no driver runs out of petrol or runs out of fuel along his journey during this one month holiday period. We shall make sure that the prices are kept fixed. A person might wish to drive all the way from here to Chabahar. Some do so. We do not wish to see them asking their friends and neighbours for petrol. If petrol is available for them to complete the journey, they must be able to get it. The country’s assets belong to the people. They must be able to enjoy their Nowruz holiday, in particular this year because it coincides with the birth anniversary of the noble prophet of Islam [Nowruz is based on the fixed solar calendar but the Prophet's birthday could fall any time of the year because it is based on the lunar calendar]. All the people should be able to travel. We have also envisaged that more people by inter- city coaches and also using the rail network.
Majlis elections
[Enadi] Mr President! One of the important forthcoming events is the eighth round of the Islamic Majlis elections. The election will be held on 24 Esfand [14th March 2008]. These will be the third elections held during the term of office of the 9th government. This is because we had the city council elections and the Assembly of Experts elections earlier. How do you assess the current atmosphere of society prior to the elections?
[Ahmadinezhad] You see, elections belong to the people. That is, elections are the most glorious scene of the people’s involvement in the running of the country. This is particularly so because the nation will be voting for the system of the Islamic Republic, which totally belongs to the people. Our people’s relations with the Islamic Republic are quite different from the relations between other nations and their governments in various countries. Our people’s relations with the Islamic Republic are sentimental, are based on faith, are founded on hearts and souls, are spiritual ties and are based on love and every other virtue. In other words, this nation sees all its future in the advancement of its country. This is the difference between our people and other nations. This is the difference between our system and other states.
Elections are the most sensitive events of the country.
[Enadi interrupts] Is this because we have a religious democracy?
[Ahmadinezhad interrupts] This system belongs to the people. I am surprised to hear some individuals asking others to explain why they wish to take part in the elections! Such a question is fundamentally wrong. I am saying that asking such a question is quite inappropriate. You should ask others why they might not vote in these elections. They must answer why they are not alert to appreciate the importance of these events. They must realize that the country belongs to them. They must realize that by voting they can influence matters in the country.
The elections in our country are real. That is, here we do not have a stage-managed election, whereby the authorities sit behind closed doors and decide who the nation should vote for. Truly this is not the case in [the Islamic Republic of Iran!]. The elections are free here. There are political parties [presumably, in other countries] and they enjoy the people’s respect. But our people make up their own minds. Whatever they decide will manifest itself as the outcome of the national resolve in the elections. Elections are very crucial. They will have many positive effects, many blessings and many beautiful manifestations. And all these things belong to the Iranian nation. These things belong to the people; and of course, they are the nation’s right and they are duty-bound to [sentence not finished].
We [as a nation] are members of a large family. We must safeguard our independence, honour, freedom, greatness, values, culture, civilization, rights, national interests and all other assets. Well, how can we do this? The answer is, through national presence [in the elections]. Our nation is quite aware of this matter. Did you see what happened on 22 Bahman [11 February, Revolution Day]? It made everyone realize that our nation is a courageous nation.
In my opinion, the atmosphere of the country is a good atmosphere. We shall hold an enthusiastic election, God willing and thanks to divine succour. Mass turn-out of the voters will basically make the enemy despondent. I am sure of this. This is how our people behave. During last year’s elections, more than 28 million people voted. This is unprecedented in other regions of the world. I wish that some attention had been made about the age of eligible voters. I am very unhappy with the fact that the minimum age was raised.
[Enadi] You mean from 16 to 18?
[Ahmadinezhad] This is my own personal opinion, but we have to respect the law. However, my heart is not happy with the decision to raise the minimum age limit for voters. I am not pleased with that decision. It is thanks to our younger generation that the [revolutionary] theatres are full of people. A 15-year old Iranian is quite different from the young people of similar age in other regions of the world. Our 15-year old teenagers determine global issues daily. Our 15-year old teenager is sensitive vis–vis a milk queue, which he [or she] encounters en route from home and which might not separate [men and women], God forbid. They are sensitive vis–vis discrimination and injustice, starting from the milk queue to the issue of Palestine, the Balkans issue, the Iraqi issue, the issue of Lebanon, etc. Basically, the level of their common sense is quite different from that of their age group in other countries. Their understanding and feeling of responsibility are quite different too. This is a particular feature of our nation.
[Enadi] Mr President! The people’s turn-out to vote at polling stations is important to some officials in the country. However, some say that the important point is the outcome of the elections and that even a 50 per cent turnout will be fine. What do you think?
[Ahmadinezhad] You see, as I said, elections belong to the people. The higher the people’s turnout, the stronger the officials’ backing will be for taking decisions. It is the Westerners who like to boast about these things [high turnout] so that they can win in the elections and then abandon the people who voted for them. Basically, if our people do not continue [their support], the Majlis or the government will not be able to do anything.
You can see this over the nuclear issue now. What can we do, if the people do not remain in the arena? Basically, who are we [as the state officials] to do anything? Can we utter a single word [without the people's support]? Can we stand firm at all?
[Enadi] The people’s will is very important.
[Ahmadinezhad] It is the people [who make decisions]. This is the case in the Majlis, in the government, in the urban and rural councils, in the running of the economy and the in the entire system. The people are the manifestation of God’s power. God has given this power to the people. This power lies in the people’s hands, in the people’s thoughts, in the people’s hearts and in the people’s steps. Well, and the country belongs to the people too. The more the people’s turnout, the stronger the Majlis’s backing will be. Incidentally, the people’s higher turnout will make certain that any decision taken will be closer to the national resolve. The more people take part, the outcome will be more representative of the people’s will. To us, as the government, this is the important point. We want to provide security so that the people can vote for their chosen candidates freely. We want to make sure that the law is implemented meticulously. And we wish to provide the suitable conditions for the people to participate in the elections freely. Of course, we unanimously believe that the people’s enthusiastic participation will make certain that their decision will be a good decision. You have seen over the past 27 to 28 years that the people’s decision has been a good decision all the time. Even if a decision had been altered in the past for various reasons, the people themselves have managed to rectify it later. That is, they amend the decisions if necessary.
[Enadi] Dr Ahmadinezhad! What do you expect from the national media? Should they encourage the people to go and vote? Should they persuade the people to play their positive role?
[Ahmadinezhad] I think that the national media are working relatively well at present. However, as I said, you must truly open up and explain the issue to the people. You must debate the points. And over the issue of maintaining link with the people and the election debate, we must to some extent lead the discussion to the programmes which should be implemented. That is, we must draw the people’s attention from individuals to the entire plans. Please pay attention to this matter. I must also explain one or two points very briefly. Well, the government’s duty is to pave the way for the nation so that it can exercise its will. This is a duty of the government. Whoever the nation votes for, we respect their vote. We shall respect the elected individuals and this will be the victor to us. Please note that holding enthusiastic and successful elections will be a victory for the government. It will be a victory for us, no matter what the outcome is.
I saw somewhere in the news today that one of the candidates somewhere had taken a young man with himself [or herself] and introduced him as Ahmadinezhad’s son. Basically my son is not the sort who might go into an election campaign headquarters to speak in favour of a candidate. He is not involved in such matters. He will not speak on behalf of any candidate either. Of course, the candidates have different political views. It will be very good if the Majlis and the government could have close viewpoints on the issues concerning the running of the state.
On political parties
If the Majlis and the government enjoy close view points in running the country, it will help better decision making. Please note that if the Majlis and the government enjoy close view points, it will not be something negative. I do not understand why some individuals wish to present this as something negative. Such close viewpoints can create coordination, while maintaining full supervision of the Majlis over the government’s work. What sort of relationship do you think exists between me and my cabinet ministers? We are all sincere friends. However, our professional treatment of the ministers’ work is quite serious. At any rate, the decision making [in the elections] belongs to the people. It is up to the people to discern who the best candidates are.
My next point, addressed to the radio and television, is prepared in a letter. You see, in our Constitution political parties are free. They can engage in [political] activities. They all very much respected by us too. I fully respect all of them. It does not make any difference to me what the party affiliation of each individual is. I respect them whether they are in this party, in that party or middle of the road! I respect them all.
In the West, the people do not vote for individual candidates. They vote for the political party of their choice. The candidates are put forward by the political parties.
[Enadi] Is it good or bad to have political parties?
[Ahmadinezhad] I do not wish to judge their procedure. This is a method adopted by them.
[Enadi] It is said that in our religious democracy, we shall ultimately move towards having political parties.
[Ahmadinezhad] Not necessarily. This a model adopted by the Westerners. The method chosen by them is not the only alternative. As you can see, we are running our country in a different way. Internal relations in Iran are quite different from the ones in the West. Basically, our system of democracy is different from theirs. Ours is something else. Our people take part in the elections with special sentiments. However, political parties are resp