• E-mail
• Print
• Comment
• Font Size
• Digg
• del.icio.us
• Discuss article

Iraqi Interior Minister Discusses US Operations, Iranian Influence

Posted on: Thursday, 6 October 2005, 06:00 CDT

Iraqi Interior Minister Bayan Jabr Solagh has said that recent US operations are intended to facilitate rather than frustrate participation in the referendum. Speaking in an interview broadcast on Al-Jazeera TV on 4 October he added that the security situation in Baghdad was improving. While saying that he did not deny an Iranian intelligence presence in Iraq, Solagh downplayed suggestions an Iranian influence in Iraqi affairs. He went on to deny as "baseless" accusations that his ministry was involved in a sectarian campaign against Sunnis, condemning all attacks on Iraqis. The following is an excerpt from the interview by Yasir Abu-Hilalah, recorded in Amman, date not given, broadcast by Qatari Al-Jazeera satellite TV on 4 October; subheadings inserted editorially:

[Passage omitted] [Abu-Hilalah] The Saudi foreign minister spoke publicly about an Iranian role in Iraq. Frankly speaking, when an Iranian role is mentioned a finger is often pointed at the [Iraqi] Interior Ministry. Is there an Iranian intelligence presence in Iraq?

Iranian influence

[Solagh] I do not think the Saudi foreign minister, whom I respect, means the Interior Ministry. He speaks about a million people who entered Iraq from Iran. We do not see them. Since the advent of Allawi's government and later our government only two Iranians were arrested for infiltrating into Iraq across the border. I apprehended them and they are still in prison because they crossed the border illegally and the Iraqi law must be implemented. Nobody was arrested during Allawi's government. No Iranian infiltration was mentioned by the Saudi foreign minister or any other foreign minister. Even Dr Allawi's government and his interior and defence ministers made no mention of the entry of a million people.

[Abu-Hilalah] The former defence minister spoke about this.

[Solagh] He spoke about Iranian threats and -

[Abu-Hilalah, interrupting] He spoke about an Iranian presence.

[Solagh] What is meant is not Iranian interference. They say that the presence of the Islamic forces which were in Iran constitutes a continuation of the Iranian presence. This is a strategic error that is incorrectly describing the 17 million Shi'is. We believe that the Arab countries must first embrace this Shi'i Arab presence in millions. If you do not think these 17 million are Arabs and if you add to them the four or five million Kurds in Iraq, you should then not blame Iraq if the constitution does not state that Iraq is part of the Arab nation.

Saudi spat

[Abu-Hilalah] Were there contacts with Saudi Arabia about the foreign minister's statements?

[Solagh] Before Prince Sa'ud al-Faysal made his statements, I met with His Highness Prince Nayif Bin-Abd-al-Aziz [Saudi interior minister]. The meeting was wonderful and we agreed to maintain contacts and form joint committees to protect our borders and sign a memorandum of understanding as happened with Jordan. God willing, I will continue these efforts. We, however, were surprised by the Saudi statements. Instead of solving the problem of Shi'is in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, who are considered third-class citizens, and the Isma'ili sect members, who are considered fourth-class citizens, they made such statements. This issue must be solved in order to enhance unity among the people of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the people of the peninsula. We were surprised by this unwarranted attack -

[Abu-Hilalah, interrupting] There are real fears about playing the Shi'i card in the Gulf, and minorities in the Arab world in general.

[Solagh] Why should there be fears? You just establish a democratic regime and give people their freedoms. Do not give women their rights in instalments, one day you allow them to drive a car, and on another you allow them to work but within certain limits. Preventing people from exercising their rights will certainly take its toll. This is what Saddam Husayn did. We call for democracy and freedom in the whole Arab world as is the case in Iraq. True, there is terrorism in Iraq but this has nothing to do with democracy.

Iranian presence

[Abu-Hilalah] The US defence secretary and not only Arab officials spoke about the presence of Iranian intelligence elements in Iraq.

[Solagh] I do not deny the presence of intelligence services in Iraq. I can tell you that there are intelligence elements in Iraq from several countries and even from unknown places in Africa. I am not making any exemptions. I have figures and names of countries. You may be surprised if I mention them to you. I know that there is a [foreign] intelligence presence in Iraq. The state was completely dissolved and we are now rebuilding it. In such a situation it is normal to have penetration by this or that country. This, however, does not mean that the government belongs to this or that side.

[Abu-Hilalah] There is also talk about Iraqis of Iranian origin. Your name is mentioned in this regard even by Shi'is. Al-Sayyid Husayn al-Sadr, for example, said the Solagh family is an Iranian family.

[Solagh] I do not want to talk about names. The Iraqis know that I am the son of the south, the son of the city of Al-Amarah. I come from the Al-Zubayd tribe, which is an old Arab tribe. Therefore, I do not want to reply to these absurdities and irresponsible remarks. I do not want to talk about the person who made such claims. I hope that grudges and personal issues will not appear on television screens. I take pride in my Arab identity. I come from an Arab tribe in southern Iraq.

[Abu-Hilalah] Let us talk about the Iranian political influence. Foreign observers saw the Supreme Council [for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq] in Iran for many years. It was one of the main formations sponsored by the Iranian Defence Ministry. Does this long presence there not arouse legitimate fears even by the Americans and the neighbouring countries?

[Solagh] No, it does not give them any legitimate fears. If the presence of any opposition in a certain country is considered affiliation to that country, shall we then consider the National Accord Movement, which stayed in Britain and held all its meetings there, an agent of Britain? Shall we also accuse the persons who came from the United States of being US agents?

[Abu-Hilalah] They were so accused.

[Solagh] No, this is not true. I do not support these accusations. I consider them Iraqi nationalists who were forced to live in Britain, the United States, Syria, Jordan and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. They are Iraqi patriots working for their country. Therefore, the coalition did not do anything outside the framework of the Iraqi people's well being.

Accusations against Interior Ministry

[Abu-Hilalah] Moderate Sunni quarters are levelling accusations at the Interior Ministry. When we talk about the Islamic Party, we talk about a party that is participating in the political process and that stands accused by other parties of being submissive and perhaps traitorous. The leadership of the Islamic Party accused the Interior Ministry of launching a sectarian war on the Sunnis through military operations. What is your reply to these accusations?

[Solagh] This is ridiculous. I have documents from the time when Hazim Sha'lan was defence minister. I have a copy of the documents sent to the Interior and Defence Ministries. They accused the National Guard of launching such a war - and you have perhaps heard of the name of the National Guard mentioned by most leaders of the Islamic Party and other parties - because the ministry was headed by a Shi'i, who was Hazim Sha'lan.

[Abu-Hilalah] They continue to accuse the National Guard.

[Solagh] No, they have stopped accusing the National Guard and began to accuse the Interior Ministry. Accusations directed at the Interior Ministry are false. I frankly told them: You are talking about the commando troops and preservation of order, but these troops are Special Forces. The commander of the Special Forces is the maternal uncle of former Defence Minister Major-General Adnan Thabit. The commander of Baghdad police forces is Major-General Abd- al-Razzaq Abd-al-Wahhab al-Samarra'i. He is one of our Sunni brothers and one of our best officers. The commander of the Capital Offence Department is Brigadier-General Thamir al-Janabi, who is from the Al-Janabat tribe in Al-Latifiyah. He is one of our best officers. Therefore, I say that three basic forces belonging to the Interior Ministry and forming the pillars of the ministry are led by our Sunni brothers. Can one believe that they target the Sunnis? This issue is baseless.

Human rights and security services

As for the issue of human rights, I take pride in the fact that the Interior Ministry celebrated the appointment of the last judge in the last battalion two weeks ago. Experts, consultants and judges from the higher judiciary attended the ceremony. Now there are judges in every battalion, brigade, Special Forces command, police corps and Capital Offence Department. They supervise the work of the Iraqi Special Forces.

[Abu-Hilalah] Nevertheless, serious human rights violations were recorded like the death containers. The newspapers published the story. Even the Iraqi Human Rights Ministry has recorded Iraqi police violations.

[Solagh] The death containers was one incident. The brothers got a new vehicle which they did not know how to use properly. What is strange is that the person responsible for it was one of our Sunni brothers. An investigation committee was formed. Some prisoners were put in this vehicle. He thought it was an ordinary vehicle like the other vehicles. It apparently had two keys: One for switching on the air conditioning system and another for the engine. He switched off the engine and went to see his comrades in arms in the hospital. When he returned he found them [dead].

[Abu-Hilalah] Pictures of the dead bodies showed a 13-year-old boy among them.

[Solagh] No, he was not 13 years old. I formed an investigation committee. The results of investigation were issued and were referred to the legal adviser. The investigation committee will issue its decision and we will punish anyone involved in any act against any person.

[Abu-Hilalah] Sunni quarters say crimes are committed by persons posing as policemen during the curfew.

[Solagh] This is true and I do not deny it, but this issue has nothing to do with the regular police and army forces. We have information and the army has information that some people wearing police or military uniforms use stolen cars to commit criminal acts against this or that sect. If we want to talk about losses, we will then say that tens of thousands of the victims were Shi'i. In contrast, the number of Sunni victims is no more than 100 or 200.

[Abu-Hilalah] They, too, talk about thousands.

[Solagh] No, this is inaccurate. However, the killing of even a single Sunni or Shi'i is rejected.

Civil war

[Abu-Hilalah] The news media reported an incident which perhaps gives credibility to accusations on the eruption of a sectarian war. Army or National Guard personnel chanted sectarian slogans in Tall Afar, which is a city with a complex structure. They were clad in official uniform and they were not ordinary people. Official television aired their chants. Does this not serve the aims of those who seek to trigger a sectarian war?

[Solagh] If we want to talk about a sectarian war, let us talk about the targeting of Shi'i areas with car bombs. We should not talk about a slogan that was raised in error. Besides, we took action against the person who raised it. The person who raised this slogan did not detonate a car bomb in the market of Balad, which is a Shi'i area, killing or wounding 200 to 300 people. He would not detonate a car in the Shi'i city of Al-Kazimiyah to kill or wound about 400 people. The same happened in Al-Najaf and Karbala. This is sectarian targeting. We should not project a chant voiced in error. This is the case, although half of the brigade which went to Tall Afar consisted of Sunnis and the other half were Shi'is. Some Shi'is chanted slogans that were not sectarian. They chanted a slogan which had no sectarian connotation. We investigated the matter.

[Abu-Hilalah] Also in the programme of "Terrorism in the hands of justice" [programme broadcast by Al-Iraqiyah TV in which those involved in attacks discuss their activities] the person is asked about his tribe and why he did what he did.

[Solagh] This is wrong.

[Abu-Hilalah] But this is done by official television.

[Solagh] It is wrong to ask him such questions. These recordings are old and sometimes they are recorded without supervision owing to the large number of criminals and terrorists. I condemn any question discriminating among people. This is rejected by the Iraqi leadership. We will not allow it. We took action against those who chanted some slogans. We, however, must not focus on the person who chanted slogans and forget the person who daily kills people in the markets and streets and slaughters children.

"State terrorism"

[Abu-Hilalah] There is talk about terrorism by groups and by the state. They condemn the terrorism of groups and at the same time they condemn state terrorism.

[Solagh] We reject state terrorism. Believe me that there is no state terrorism in the new Iraq. We have investigated all cases. Our Sunni brothers complained to the Americans and I saw the complaint. The Americans carried out investigations and said these were sheer lies. I want to reassure you and the viewers that the [United Iraqi] Alliance will take the Defence Ministry and leave the Interior Ministry to others. Therefore, we in the coalition are currently discussing the issue of having the Defence Ministry and leaving the Interior Ministry to others. We will then see who is going to attack us. This is a secret I am divulging to you for the first time. If you are afraid of the Interior Ministry, I will give it to you [laughing] and we will take the Defence Ministry. The Defence Ministry will be ours in the next government.

US operations and referendum

[Abu-Hilalah] Also within the same context, some Sunni leaders view the current military operations in the Sunni areas prior to the referendum on the constitution as an attempt to keep the Sunnis away from the referendum. Why did you not postpone these operations for two or three weeks?

[Solagh] I have previously stressed and stress again that these operations are carried out by the coalition forces and the army. The police forces are not involved in the operations taking place in the western region. In my capacity as member of the higher ministerial security committee, I know that these operations have a deadline and they will stop before the referendum in order to allow people to participate in it. The purpose of these operations is to fight the terrorists and not give them the chance to prevent people from going to the ballot boxes. The purpose of these operations is to pursue and arrest the terrorists in order to stop their interference and prevention of people from participating in the referendum.

[Abu-Hilalah] We also note that there are basic groups which support the resistance but reject the operations targeting civilians. The Islamic Army in Iraq and the 1920 Revolution Brigades have issued statements urging people to vote against the constitution. This in itself is considered political participation.

[Solagh] I support them. I support those who say yes and those who say no to the constitution. I consider any political participation an effort in the right direction regardless of whether the answer is negative or positive. What is important is that the person should express his opinion by saying either yes or no. But to say neither yes nor no and to use dirty weapons to kill people will be rejected.

[Abu-Hilalah] Have you opened dialogue with the groups which reject the constitution?

[Solagh] Yes, we are holding a dialogue with them. Yesterday I met with one of the political leaders, who started to join the political and constitutional process, and we agreed to meet again in Baghdad. He is usually in Baghdad but he was on a visit to Amman and we met him and reached agreement on several issues. We agreed to solve some problems related to the misunderstanding between us and them. This is important.

Former defence minister

[Abu-Hilalah] The former defence minister accuses the current government of targeting him on the issue of the Defence Ministry. Demonstrations were today staged in the area he comes from. The demonstrators called for defending and acquitting him.

[Solagh] In my capacity as interior minister, I do not interfere in the work of others. The issue of former Defence Minister Hazim Sha'lan has to do with the judiciary. Therefore, I think it is wrong for a person, ministry or side to interfere in this issue. This is a purely judicial issue and our judiciary is independent. Accusations over satellite channels began to be made although the judiciary has not yet had its word. We must wait for the decision of the judiciary and then the Interior or Defence Ministry can play a role and implement what is decided by the court. I do not think funds were embezzled. There might be some mismanagement, like importing second- hand aircraft manufactured in 1976 and changing their engines instead of importing aircraft manufactured in 2004 without having to make any changes. We are a country that needs planes that fly 24 hours a day to protect the borders and pipelines. I think there was mismanagement and this might require investigation to find out whether it was done by the minister or his deputy or a junior employee. I do not want to engage in such issues because they come under the jurisdiction of the judiciary and not us.

US withdrawal

[Abu-Hilalah] During a congressional hearing session, US military officials spoke in a language different from yours. They spoke about an increase in the number of Iraqi forces but they cast doubt on these forces' efficiency and ability to participate in the military operations. What is the reason for this conflict in assessment?

[Solagh] There are different points of view. My brother Defence Minister Dr Al-Dulaymi and I believe that our forces are highly qualified, as proven in Tall Afar. The commando troops in Tall Afar achieved their aims within days. See the difference between Tall Afar and Al-Fallujah. Al-Fallujah was completely destroyed while only scores of houses were destroyed in Tall Afar. All the people of Al-Fallujah were displaced while only 11,000 of the people in Tall Afar were displaced. We set up tents for them near Tall Afar and they are now back home. Only six civilians were killed in Tall Afar while hundreds of civilians were killed in Al-Fallujah. You may recall that 600 or 700 were buried in mass graves in Al-Fallujah.

[Abu-Hilalah] You are trying to highlight the importance of the work done by the police and National Guard forces while the Americans have a different assessment. They view things the way they are on the ground.

[Solagh] The Americans believe that the Iraqi security forces were now supposed to be able to maintain security in the whole country. I agree with them that these forces are still not able to do so. If we had purchased hundreds of helicopters with this 1bn dollars - and the price of a helicopter is known - and other ordinary planes to monitor the borders, the performance of the Iraqi security forces would have been different. The problem was that we imported old refurbished aircraft. They cannot be used because they are junk. Therefore, we are saying there was mismanagement. The problem is that we had a six-month [former US administrator Paul] Bremer government, a six-month [former Premier Iyad] Allawi government, and a six-month [Premier] Al-Ja'fari government. Performance will thus be confused. No government can draw up and implement a five-year [development] plan. By the time you form the cabinet and start work you will find that time is coming to an end.

Attacks

[Abu-Hilalah] The Americans are also speaking about an increase in the armed operations while you are speaking about a reduction in these operations.

[Solagh] What areas are you talking about? Are you talking about the areas inside or outside Baghdad?

[Abu-Hilalah] In general.

[Solagh] If you speak about Baghdad, then I can say there is a large reduction as you see. On the first day we started work there were 14 car bombs, on the second day there were 13, and on the third day there were 15. This continued for a week until we adopted measures and the rate has now dropped to 0.6. If you calculate things since we assumed power up to the present time, you will find that the average after the first week dropped to 0.6 car bombs daily. There are sometimes one or two car bombs a day and sometimes there are none. According to our accurate intelligence statistics, the rate now is 0.6 car bombs detonated in Baghdad daily. If you mean the desert and highways, the latest US report says 25 per cent of the operations there are effective while 75 per cent are ineffective.

[Abu-Hilalah] Talk about Arab fighters also falls within the context of this conflicting assessment. The Americans say 10 per cent are Arab fighters while the remaining 90 per cent are Iraqis. You say the opposite.

[Solagh] Even yesterday I told satellite channels that during the last six months the number of Arab fighters was 2,500. This number is now approximately 900. Where did the rest go? Some of them were killed or fled to neighbouring countries. I have figures confirming this. They might have returned home to live in peace or re- establish themselves there.

[Abu-Hilalah] Dear viewers, thank you for watching. We hope to meet with you again in other interviews.

Source: BBC Monitoring Middle East

More News in this Category