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Russian Nuclear Energy Head Interviewed on Iran, North Korea, Industry Plans

Posted on: Saturday, 1 October 2005, 15:00 CDT

The head of the Russian Federal Atomic Energy Agency, Aleksandr Rumyantsev, has said Iran does not yet have the full nuclear fuel cycle, but that it has the right to such a cycle for peaceful purposes. In a wide-ranging interview to Russian Ekho Moskvy radio, Rumyantsev also said that Iran has an advanced nuclear research centre in Tehran, which was built there by the USA. On North Korea, Rumyantsev said he cannot rule out that it already has significant amounts of fissile weapons-grade materials. Rumyantsev also talked about plans for Russia's own nuclear power engineering, floating nuclear power plants and storage of spent nuclear fuel. The following is excerpted from the interview broadcast by Ekho Moskvy radio on 30 September; subheadings inserted editorially:

[Presenter] [Passage omitted] The head of the Federal Agency for Atomic Energy of the Russian Federation, Aleksandr Yuryevich Rumyantsev, is the guest of our programme. Hello, Aleksandr Yuryevich!

[Rumyantsev] Hello!

Adamov knows state secrets

[Presenter] Straight away, to launch it, so that we cheer up, here is the following question: Yevgeniy Olegovich Adamov who is currently in a Swiss prison, does he really know state secrets? And are really some kind of unpredictable scenarios possible there?

[Rumyantsev] The post of the head of the atomic sector means familiarization with state secrets.

[Presenter] I don't have any more questions [on this] and am immediately asking the next question. We have chosen roughly the following subjects for today's conversation: Iran's nuclear programme; some problems emerging as regards the DPRK [Democratic People's Republic of Korea], North Korea; the development of nuclear power engineering in the Russian Federation and all that can emerge around these questions. [Passage omitted]

Iran does not have full nuclear fuel cycle

At the press conference in Jerusalem [in April 2005], Russian President Vladimir Putin demanded that Iran abandon the creation of technologies of the full nuclear cycle, that is the extraction of nuclear ore, its processing, production of fuel, enrichment, placing in, removal and disposal. As early as last Monday, the Foreign Ministry of Iran stated that the Islamic Republic of Iran considers it to be its legal right to have the full nuclear fuel cycle. Does it really have it, Aleksandr Yuryevich?

[Rumyantsev] No, Iran does not have the full nuclear fuel cycle at the moment. And if one is to talk fully precisely, then one should clearly make a distinction. The full nuclear fuel cycle envisages the creation of fissile weapons-grade materials. Therefore, one must always talk regarding this subject - it is better to talk about the nuclear fuel cycle for peaceful use of atomic energy. This is a completely clear thing. It includes the extraction of uranium, its processing, transformation into gas, gaseous compounds, [in particular] uranium hexofluoride, enrichment regarding isotopes, production of fuel, work of this fuel in nuclear power plants, removal of spent fuel and handling it with its possible processing. This is the nuclear fuel cycle for peaceful use of nuclear energy.

[Presenter] As far as I understand, the creation of nuclear weapons envisages the enrichment of this very spent fuel.

[Rumyantsev, interrupting] True.

[Presenter, continuing] Processing.

[Rumyantsev] True, true, it is possible to enrich uranium to weapons-grade conditions. I will not give the percentages. This is known to specialists. And there is a second subject [word as received]. It is possible to extract weapons-grade plutonium from radiochemical processing; and also, specifically, to produce these spent rods in specialized reactors.

Iran has the right to nuclear fuel cycle for peaceful purposes

[Presenter] According to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, does Iran really have the right to the full nuclear fuel cycle?

[Rumyantsev] As a member of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, Iran has the right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, including the fuel cycle needed for this.

[Presenter] The fuel cycle. Russian is building the first generating set of the nuclear power plant at Bushehr, which is planned to be put into operation by the end of next year, if I remember correctly. And according to bilateral treaties with Iran, Russia undertakes to supply fuel for this nuclear reactor, for this nuclear power plant and afterwards take spent nuclear fuel back and process it.

[Rumyantsev] Absolutely right.

[Correspondent] Why does Iran need the full nuclear cycle?

[Rumyantsev] Iran wants to exercise its international right, according to a statement by both politicians and experts. And they have such a right. But you see, in any country, if there are not, for example, 10 power generating sets of nuclear power plants, an own nuclear fuel cycle is not only economically unjustified, but it is even ruinous from the economic point of view. This requires investment of huge funds and only starting from 10 operating sets, an own nuclear fuel cycle reaches a level of positive profitability. And therefore, all countries, including Russia, are calling on Iran to abandon the nuclear fuel cycle for nuclear power engineering because it is completely economically unprofitable and are offering in exchange a supply of fresh fuel and return of spent nuclear fuel to Russia, for example.

[Presenter] As far as I understand this is a question - I cannot speak on Iran's behalf - but it seems to me that this is rather a question of political expediency, while economic questions - if there are any - become secondary.

[Rumyantsev] And all opponents are making statements to the effect that, if this is not justified economically, then there is some other goal. That is where all suspicions and criticism of Iran come from.

[Presenter] How does Russia, our country, behave in this case?

[Rumyantsev] Russia strictly adheres to all norms of international agreements, including the one on the non- proliferation of nuclear weapons. We clearly follow the relevant chapter of this agreement, where, if any country, which is a member of this treaty, has signed it, then countries which have these technologies and which have also signed the treaty, they not only can help, they must help that country make use of peaceful nuclear power engineering. And according to this article, we are creating a peaceful nuclear facility there, a nuclear power plant with nuclear fuel, which is naturally not enriched to a weapons-grade [material], and without nuclear fuel cycles attached to power station. And we even signed an agreement on the return of spent fuel to the Russian Federation. [Passage omitted]

[Presenter] There is the following suspicion in the world regarding Iran's need to enrich fuel: If, firstly, it is economically unprofitable, and secondly there is only 1 GW, yes? [Interrupted by Rumyantsev]

[Rumyantsev] Yes, that's correct, the first power plant with the capacity of - the rated capacity of 1 GW - is being constructed.

[Presenter] Capacity, yes? When economic expediency is 8 to 10, a minimum of 8 [GW], yes?

Iran's position consistent

[Rumyantsev] You see, Iran has an absolutely clear and logical answer at the state level. We are developing science, machinery and technologies in our state and perhaps they will be unjustifiably expensive at the beginning, but we are moving forward along the road of progress.

You see, several years ago, at a general conference of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the vice-president of Iran and head of Iran's nuclear commission [Atomic Energy Organization], Mr Aqazadeh, appealed to the whole word to help construct in Iran another six additional facilities of 6 GW in total. Six generating sets mean 6 GW of rated capacity. And then with our 1 GW, they will come close to the situation whereby a nuclear fuel cycle will be justified. That is, for the time being there are no illogical answers. But suspicion - and it is true that it is being said that, if you have so much oil and gas, then why you have to develop - well, it is quite understandable, Russia also has plenty of oil and gas, but all the same we are developing nuclear power engineering and are saving both oil and gas to use them for other purposes and not for power generation.

[Presenter] Will Russia in future be offering Iran to build new facilities, nuclear facilities, new reactors, generating sets?

[Rumyantsev] In future, the Russian Federation is prepared to help all the countries which have signed the Treaty on the Non- Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and intend to actively develop their nuclear power engineering, we will help such countries.

Iran's nuclear research facilities

[Presenter] Perhaps you have information on the degree of development of research facilities in the area of nuclear energy and nuclear power engineering in Iran? To what extent they [interrupted by Rumyantsev].

[Rumyantsev] I must say that they have rather serious experimental facilities. As a physicist, all my active scientific life I personally worked using [changes tack] - at nuclear research reactors. I worked in solid state physics using dispersion of neutrons. And such a nuclear research reactor - it is situated in Tehran. It has been built there by the USA. This is a very good instrument to carry out experiments in solid state physics, chemistry, biology, nuclear medicine, nuclear physics. And there are appropriate equipment, appropriate installations. Therefore, in this respect, this is a very advanced nuclear research centre, if one is to talk about the role of nuclear science and technology.

[Presenter] And in which countries are Iranian experts getting training?

[Rumyantsev] Iranian experts are studying in many countries. That is, there is no - I cannot - I do not have precise statistical data, but from my understanding there are Iranian students in all developed countries where the education process is at a high level.

[Presenter] Including in our country?

[Rumyantsev] And in our country they have studied in a number of institutes. I don't have the latest information as to how many of them have graduated, but at least, Iranian students studied here. [Passage omitted]

North Korea's nuclear programme

[Presenter] Let's now talk about the situation surrounding the DPRK. [There have been] very difficult talks, the North Korean delegation at the talks in Beijing would now undertake some obligations, now, 24 hours later, abandon them, thereby putting in an awkward position both the hosts, the Chinese, and the heads of other countries. How serious is the issue of the creation of a nuclear bomb in the DPRK?

[Rumyantsev] Well, the issue of the development of nuclear weapons in any country is always a super important event and it is a serious issue. As for us, we have not had professional contacts with our colleagues, nuclear physicists and relevant engineers, for more than 10 years. So it happened. I must say that Korea also has research facilities, also has research reactors. And there are spent nuclear fuel assemblies from nuclear research reactors. And it is also known from open publications and materials of international conferences that Korea knows how to carry out radiochemical processing of such spent fuel. This is what is known.

[Presenter] Can one talk at the moment that the DPRK really has nuclear weapons? According to your estimates, how likely is this?

[Rumyantsev] According to my estimates, they have a number of technologies. I said, for example, radiochemistry of spent materials. They have made a statement that they either came very close to or have already created something of the kind. I do not rule out that as part of this radiophysical programme, radiochemical programme, they have extracted some significant amounts of fissile weapons-grade materials. I do not rule this out.

Nuclear power engineering in Russia

[Presenter] I now want to change the subject and talk about the development of nuclear power engineering in the Russian Federation. What is the share of nuclear power engineering in the overall power engineering of Russia? What is the percentage?

[Rumyantsev] Approximately 17 per cent of the total amount of electric power is produced [by nuclear power engineering], in our country.

[Presenter] Where is it most of all geographically?

[Rumyantsev] Geographically, in the European part [of Russia] it comes close to 30 per cent.

[Presenter] That is closer to one third.

[Rumyantsev] Yes, approximately one third. In the northwestern region, about 40 per cent, somewhere around 38-37.5 per cent because of Leningrad and Kola nuclear power plants. And beyond the Urals, if one looks at Yekaterinburg, then 50 km from Yekaterinburg, there is Beloyarsk nuclear power plant and there are no nuclear facilities beyond that, with the exception of the village of Bilibino in far- away Chukotka, where there is a small power plant with a total capacity of about 50 MW. That is, our other generating sets are 1,000 MW and there [it is] 50 MW, this is the scale. However, we are present in Chukotka.

[Presenter] The general situation in power engineering, is there a surplus of capacity, a deficit [of capacity], do we have a surplus of electric power, or too little of it?

[Rumyantsev] At the moment, we have a surplus of generating capacity, but this all involves a pool that has to a large extent spent its service life and at any time a significant number of such power generating facilities will be going out of operation, will either be taken out according to a normal planned schedule, or will even be switched off under emergency conditions. And it is not ruled out that a serious energy deficit will emerge in the nearest - let's say, well, according to my estimates, perhaps 10 years. Our existing energy strategy for the development of Russia's power engineering until 2020 takes into account all these tendencies.

[Presenter] What is the surplus at the moment?

[Rumyantsev] At the moment, according to my estimates, the reserve of rated capacity is some 30 GW. That is, if we switch on, well, look at the peak of electricity consumption, then about 30 GW of rated capacity is our reserve.

Future plans for nuclear power engineering

[Presenter] What can be the strategy for the development of nuclear power engineering in such conditions? In general, it means replacing the existing nuclear power plants, construction of new ones or modernization or something else?

[Rumyantsev] You have correctly named absolutely all tendencies. This is both the extension of the service life, which is scientifically justified, and we are dealing with this. And we have already extended the service life of four generating sets. This means two at Novovoronezh [nuclear power plant] and two at Kola [nuclear power plant].

[Presenter] To what degree can one extend in percentages?

[Rumyantsev] Well, we have only managed to justify [the extension of service life] by 15 years. And I think that we will not manage to do it by a longer period. Their designed service life was 30 years. We have carried out a range of material science experiments, full equipment, carried out tests at test stands, replaced a lot of equipment, replaced construction materials. This is not an extension on paper, as one could think. This is the result of scientific research. And with good justification to the Gosatomnadzor [Russian Federal Monitoring Authority for Nuclear and Radiation Safety] previously and Rostekhnadzor [Federal Service for Ecological, Technological and Nuclear Monitoring] now, we have been submitting all this to them. And we have received the first licence for five years. And scientifically they agreed with us that there is a scientific justification for 15 years. I think that the extension [of service life] by a longer period is inexpedient. So then, the first point is that we will be extending the [service] life.

[Presenter, interrupting] Modernizing [power plants].

[Rumyantsev, interrupting] Yes, modernizing power plants. You put it correctly. Second, we will be completing construction of generating sets with a considerable degree of readiness. We have completed construction of the third generating set at Kalinin [nuclear power plant] and put it into operation last December. The degree of its readiness was 35 per cent. That is we completed the construction of 65 per cent. We have for the first time in our young Russian history showed that we have not already ["already" as heard] lost qualification to complete the construction of such generating sets from such a level. Therefore, the completion of construction of such generating sets will continue. Volgodonsk [generating set] No 2, Balakovo [generating set] Nos 5 and 6, Kalinin [generating set] No 4 are lined up for us. This is also - you can count four sets of one thousand [megawatts] are coming up.

Then, we are designing the VVR-1500 project, that is a generating set which is by 50 per cent more powerful. And the candidates for that - the first candidate is Leningrad nuclear power plant and then we will be replacing facilities at Kursk power plant and at Smolensk power plant with such generating sets, where there are RBMK reactors. They are popularly known as reactors of the Chernobyl type. They have been operating there since the Chernobyl [nuclear disaster of April 1986] without accidents - I'm touching wood - for 20 years. And in any case their life span is already coming to an end and we will be replacing them with such generating sets.

And we are simultaneously actively working on a reactor on fast neutrons - a prototype of our BM-600 reactor, which has been successfully working at Beloyarsk nuclear power plant for more than 25 years. The concept includes an economy of oil and gas and provision of huge resources of a fuel component in power engineering because reactors on fast neutrons are reactors which are regenerating fuel. And then the problem will be resolved for - I would say - for thousands of years, if we have a large-scale nuclear power engineering on fast neutrons.

Floating nuclear power plants

[Presenter] I am very interested in plans to create floating nuclear power plants, perhaps not as powerful as 1 GW, but floating nuclear power plants on gigantic platforms, which can be, for example, in the Arctic Ocean, or off the northern shores of Russia.

[Rumyantsev] Well, if it is on a platform, it is not floating. [Short passage with presenter and Rumyantsev speaking at the same time omitted.]

It is on an ordinary barge. On an ordinary barge, the icebreaker fleet. Roughly speaking, an icebreaker is already a nuclear power plant, simply all the energy there goes into moving the propeller, into own energy consumption. But in this way one can sail to an area to which it is difficult to gain access, provide electricity to the shore for some 15 years, then a tractor or a tug hitches it and takes it to a factory for reconstruction and a new generating set is being stationed. This, such a concept was being developed back in the Soviet era to provide power to the northern shipping line. Fuel issues - delivering it has always been expensive. At the moment it is very difficult to make economic and strategic forecasts. But we have such a project and we have already done something.

[Presenter] How much could it cost, one such system?

[Rumyantsev] I can say precisely that at the moment it costs a little more than 190m dollars to station such a generating set in Severodvinsk. And surveying work has already been carried out and some work has already been done.

[Presenter] Have you already considered other locations?

[Rumyantsev] Kamchatka has been considered. Pevek [in Chukotka Autonomous Area] has been considered. In fact, everything has started from it. It was planned to station it far away, there. [Passage omitted]

[Presenter] Aleksandr Yuryevich, I am still very interested - I have become interested in these floating nuclear power station. Such an unexpected and unusual thing. The capacity is of course not a gigawatt - it is much less there probably?

[Rumyantsev] No.

[Presenter] How much?

[Rumyantsev] It is approximately 80 MW, 100 MW.

[Presenter] Well, approximately 10 times less.

[Rumyantsev] Yes, 10 times less.

[Presenter] Than one generating set of a large stationary nuclear power plant.

[Rumyantsev] Yes, yes. But you are not the only one to be interested in this. Many countries are interested, but they are asking us the right question: Friends, show us at least one generating set in operation, its economy, its operating capabilities and security, and then we will be ordering them from you in dozens. This is what is happening. And at the moment, a few months ago, at our board meeting, having despaired of finding investors here in Russia, we are now looking for investors worldwide. I named the price to you. It is [interrupted by presenter].

[Presenter] One hundred and ninety million dollars.

[Rumyantsev] Yes, 190, well, a little bit more, 193, that much.

[Presenter] Does this include security measures?

[Rumyantsev] Yes, everything. Complete project.

[Presenter] Protection from possible air, underwater attack?

[Rumyantsev] This is ready for operation. A project ready for operation. This thing. Well, what is underwater we can talk about it separately. But from the air, such facilities are protected as part of air-defence of the state. So then, in this respect - this is a dangerous facility from the point of view of its use and safety. And of course such a project is tempting, but electricity [generated by] it will not be cheap, by such a floating power plant.

[Presenter] How much?

[Rumyantsev] I think that it will be 150 per cent more expensive than in the case of a stationary one. But then in those regions to which it can be brought without power transmission lines and where it is local, it - if done in the usual way - it will be several times cheaper compared to it being provided through power transmission lines, or producing electricity by using diesel fuel.

[Presenter] You said that its life span is 15 years, yes?

[Rumyantsev] Yes, something [interrupted by presenter].

[Presenter] That is, one will not need to deliver barrels of fuel for 15 years.

[Rumyantsev] No, there is no need. [Passage omitted]

Ecological considerations

[Presenter] What about ecology? Are ecologists changing their point of view?

[Rumyantsev] From the point of view of ecology, nuclear power engineering is the only type of power engineering which does not emit greenhouse gases. That's it. And from the point of view of the Kyoto Protocol and other concepts - the other thing is that one can argue whether all those models are correct, which are about greenhouse gases [interrupted by presenter].

[Presenter] Mathematical models.

[Rumyantsev] Yes, of course, but that is a different question. But it is a fact that nuclear power engineering does not emit solid or gaseous waste into the atmosphere and in this sense they are ecologically very safe. Another matter, if one learns how to handle spent fuel correctly and safely store it with a guarantee for thousands, tens of thousands of years, then all the questions will disappear. It is very economical and good.

Nuclear fuel

[Presenter] Speaking of fuel, by the way. As I understand it, Russia controls a third of the world's market of fuel for nuclear power plants.

[Rumyantsev] Well, it is a commercial secret, but yes you are right [laughs]. You are right.

[Presenter] I'm sorry. Yes, yes. Well, you see how many secrets, it turns out, we are divulging together. One-third. Does this mean that we sign agreements on the return of spent fuel with all countries to which we supply our fuel for nuclear power plants, with all of them?

[Rumyantsev] Well, let me think. So then, the thing is that we signed some agreements under old legislation and some we are signing under new legislation on circulation [as received]. In the old system, we had to supply fresh fuel, receive spent fuel, keep it for some time, process it and return the dangerous products generated by the processing to that country. This is one protocol.

[Presenter] Right. This is what we had with India, I think, under old agreements, didn't we?

[Rumyantsev] No, not with India. In the case of India, we - still on the subject of fuel loading - with India we signed an agreement at the end of the 1980s. We put all the fuel issues off until later. But for example, with Hungary, Bulgaria - and therefore amendment of these agreements is needed now in line with new legislation, which makes it possible to store it longer and provides for some development of storage facilities, perhaps not returning it, but vitrifying it and safely disposing of it in some [mountain] ranges, if these methods are reliably proven by mankind.

[Presenter] Have they already been proven or not yet been proven?

[Rumyantsev] Well, Yucca Mountain, the famous storage facility of the United States. They have carried out such experiments that they were justifying it for several hundred thousand years, the safety of that storage facility. We are closely following these scientific justifications, in what rocks, how all that will be. [Passage omitted]

Source: BBC Monitoring Former Soviet Union

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